Nadine Wilches 0:00

Hi, well, welcome to the podcast Navigate with Nadine. It's really nice to have Ken Huey, the CEO of the Hope Group and Havenwood Academy, with over 25 years experience in mental and behavioral health care. Your work, Ken, focuses on trauma-informed care, building innovative treatment programs, creating healthier systems. And the goal is really to help young people and families find hope before challenge becomes a crisis. That really aligns with what we do here at Mind Dark Health, which is predict and prevent mental behavioral health disorders before a crisis. So I think we're going to have a great conversation with Ken here. So welcome. Thanks for coming on today.

Ken Huey 0:38

Yeah, glad to be here. Thanks, David.

Nadine Wilches 0:41

Yeah, so I know you've had a long history in mental behavioral health care. Was there a defining moment for you that viewed the difference between treating symptoms and then trying to prevent the root cause before crisis happened? Was there a defining moment or was this built over time?

Ken Huey 1:01

Yeah, I'd say that it was built over time. Really, it was when I started to understand trauma. You finish a PhD in marriage and family therapy, and they treat you really well and teach you a lot, but it's about critical thinking. They don't teach you all of the nuts and bolts of what you eat to go practice, really. They make you a consumer so that you're able to find the things you need. So I launch into the world and into my first job at a residential treatment center, and I'm seeing all of this really strange behavior, particularly from adopted kids. And I've adopted myself, so I'm kind of drawn to these kids. And the more that I start to scratch at that, I realize, well, this is it's adoption itself is a trauma. I didn't even have the words for it. And the more that I looked at that, the more I started to realize, oh, that's the root. It's complex trauma. The adverse childhood experience study had just come out not too long before. And that's what got me then looking at this is the root cause. And what do we do that rewires the brain to get us back to a baseline that's really healthy? And can we do something as a society so that we have less of this trauma in young people's lives?

Nadine Wilches 2:09

Mm-hmm. Yeah, and there's just really great evidence to show that despite trauma, hardships, adversity, that we really can build resilience and that there is a difference between folks that have a set of protective factors, protective behaviors. That's what we measure and address here. So it's my bread and butter, but that the folks that have that set of features, characteristics, situations, conditions are better off and can thrive through and despite some of the challenges and adversities they've had. So if you could describe a little bit about what does this really look like for children of adoption or just in general in your practice, what have you seen in terms of those conditions that really shape and can shift and build resiliency better, or signs, early warning signs that you've seen?

Ken Huey 3:00

Yeah, well, Nadine, I appreciate that because it's really easy to focus on the phenomenal work of Feliti and understanding ACEs. But as you say, there are protective and compensatory experiences that can help mitigate that. Well, part of what really brought that to the forefront for me is I have a brother who's a year and two days younger than me, adopted, raised in the same family, who sits in the state prison system and will be there for another probably 12 years.

Nadine Wilches 3:28

It's alright to hear that.

Ken Huey 3:29

Oh, I yeah, I appreciate that. It's tied to his trauma. And it was not long after I got out of my PhD and I'm starting to work and I'm understanding trauma. I was feeling a little defeated by how much damage ACEs do to us, physically, emotionally, socially, psychologically. There's just such big impact. That was when I started to really try and dig into what helps fix this, and really was able to start to identify why I was landing where I was, and really kind of blind, dumb luck and having some compensatory experiences, particularly a few securely attached adults that helped me navigate and find a sense of self that helped me mitigate the issues that were thrown at me, just like my brother. My brother didn't get that. He really didn't. He was really quite abandoned in so many ways. And I think that's the biggest factor that has us leading very different lives.

Nadine Wilches 4:21

Yeah. And you talk about this circumstantial situational mitigating factors. So, and we're trying to say, well, you know, yes, that's true. People, there are circumstances in which place people on a healthier, happier, more successful, more fulfilling track. And then there's characteristics and situations that put people on not so great of a track, an unhealthy and destructive and disruptive track and poor functioning. So, you know, yes, we have the circumstantial piece of it, and that's absolutely going to be present. But do you also see that we can infuse intentionally, proactively? And I'm sure I know the answer is yes, but what, but maybe beyond yes. Where can we infuse intentionally the way we measure and address things before before crisis? And then also when we're trying to improve and strengthen folks who already are in crisis or had been in crisis and restabilize and rehabilitate folks.

Ken Huey 5:19

Yeah. This is what has launched my career and pushed me to where I am because I just sought the blind, dumb luck, but thought certainly we can engineer successes early on and later that start to change this. We understand that neglect and abuse and physical, sexual, emotional abuse, and family dysfunction wires the brain for chaos. How do we unwire that or wire it in a different way? And there are experiences we can create that do that. And can we intervene early by having particularly, I think, strong adults, securely attached adults being mentors for those that we are able to identify quickly as having aces or on their way to a high ACE score, so that we can mitigate this from the word go. I mean, that is the thing for me. I can relate back to Vern Spires, this just gem of a human being from my childhood, who just would not stop telling me every time he saw me, once a week, he'd grab me and tell me, you are a leader. You are going to do amazing things. You are beautiful and wonderful. He knew that I had stuff going on. But man, he just convinced me that I had something and just poured that into me over the course of a few years and was a huge difference maker. Well, can we engineer that? Can we put those people in the paths of kids that need it? And I think that the answer is definitely yes.

Nadine Wilches 6:45

Yeah, yeah. And what does that look like in practice? Because for intention of the podcast is like, okay, take Ken's knowledge and experience and disseminate it so that other people can take this and gest it and try and do something with it. And I think that the complexity comes with some of the barriers that we face in community intervention, not only cost barriers, but personnel barriers, resources, time, effort, job role restrictions, tons of things, you know, systemic things that affect the professional teams from being able to do the obvious that comes to them because people are seeing this as well. And they want to do these things better and differently. And they don't necessarily have the infrastructure that you've built, which your community is very lucky to have. But if you look around, not every community has that. And I'm sure we also want to affect these folks earlier and more often so that they don't need all of the resources that you're providing at the crisis level.

Ken Huey 7:41

Yeah. So there's, I really think, two major opportunities to do something to affect ACES, to apply PACE, compensatory, proactive, positive experiences that help mitigate the effects. The first is really an individual level. I think if we're motivated and we just look around, everybody that's a securely attached, high-functioning adult ought to be looking around and find at least one person that they can go add value to. Seriously, it is amazing. So I have somebody that I continue to work with and have for on a pro bono basis with some just weekly contact basically, and for a few years and have watched the trajectory of her life really correct just based on a positive input over those few years. It's not just me, there's other things too. But just by giving mentorship and being that securely attached person to think and to give positive regard and help heal what's going on. So that's one. Just be a human that's part of the good side of things. And you've got then more clinical nature items that you can throw at this, really experiential therapies and things that challenge this dominant narrative inside of an ACE's affected mind, where you believe that. So I knew, well, I put quotes around it, I knew that I could not sustain relationships. This is a guy with a PhD, 35 years married, six children, life's good for me, but I knew up into my 20s that I could not sustain a relationship. And it played out that way because of the various traumas that I had, for sure. But once I started getting that narrative challenged and started to see possibility, it started to allow for that possibility to actually actually take place. Well, we can engineer that. We can do that in a clinical environment. Have repetitive, selective, solid experiences that change the way somebody thinks. So Dr. Bruce Perry talks about the six R's repetitive, relational, rhythmic, rewarding, relevant, and respectful. You don't have to memorize them, but you can look up Dr. Bruce Perry and find these six R's. But the idea that in a repetitive relational way, with reward built into it, if you can repetitively show the mind, teach a person that there is a way to success, and you just show it and have them do, show them and have them do, show them and have them do, you can actually get it to where, oh, it's like shooting a basket from two feet away. After enough time, there starts to be muscle memory, and I know how to make that ball go into the basket. I start to know how to have successful relationships, have reciprocal interactions that are not all about me or all about chaos.

Nadine Wilches 10:20

And you're really talking about cognitive restructuring, right? And we can do that without necessarily you're talking about non-clinical interventions with mentorship and supportive adults that can be adjunctive to any clinical treatments that someone may be receiving. And then we have a lot of folks that fall into the category where they will never receive treatment for a lot of reasons. They don't want to, they don't feel that's right for them, they don't feel that they're in crisis enough, there's not enough appropriate care, the transportation issue, a million discrimination challenges that people face in receiving an access to care. And then you have the component where folks who have experienced very similar traumas never are in crisis because they've already have that built infrastructure around them and those things in advance. And that's really where we're trying to have an effect from a population health standpoint, so that when people, because we know we can't prevent every hardship and trauma and experience that will thwart people's success trajectories, that we can get put those things in advance. So I'd love to hear your thoughts and those kind of two pieces, the folks that can't or just won't be served by the nature of the world of access for a variety of reasons, and then the folks that we can serve from a population level and prevent them ever needing this type of high-level intervention, high cost and from a personnel standpoint, too.

Ken Huey 11:50

Yeah, totally. So I think if we're out there trying to mentor and encouraging that kind of programming and adding interventions, like you said, well, that second group can get care. I'm deeply troubled by the first group you mentioned, Aidan. It's a sad thing to see somebody who needs that connection, needs the chance to rewire their brain, who just doesn't know how to access it, which is oftentimes then a secondary byproduct of the harm that was done to them. So there's an amazing videographer who does what's called soft white underbelly that gets millions of views, and he talks to those that are homeless on the streets in Los Angeles mostly. And with almost everybody has got pretty significant trauma. And a stuck nature of that is just highlighted with every interview that he does. Of just so often, too, they'll see the issues and see that this is this life that they're living is not serving them, but they don't know how to break free. And accessing services, even asking for it, is just not in the cards for them. That and the level of outreach needed to tackle that, that is daunting for me. I don't have an answer for that. I just don't. Other than trying to be there, and hopefully for the the one that latches on and says, yes, fantastic. There are going to be plenty for whom the damage is is just set and there's not much that we could do. I don't want to finish that one with such a downer, but there is that part of it. Let's certainly help those that we can.

Nadine Wilches 13:17

Yeah. I think we see that from a population health standpoint as an opportunity for places like education, where we're serving the majority of youth and young adults and being able to and community center kind of locations where we can access those folks in a different way from a population health standpoint and provide those touch points and build an infrastructure that they need. How do you think about that kind of thing?

Ken Huey 13:46

Well, so really you're talking about the need for a village and socially engineering structures that help support positive growth. So this is where a good after-school program is just phenomenal. I look at some of the beating that teachers have taken over the last few decades, and their job is fairly tough. And there's been a lack of appreciation, I think, at times. What a noble and worthy endeavor when you throw yourself at it and you try to be to many different kids that you work with, that positive, pro-social, securely attached adult in their life, that the impact that you've got is tremendous. So, what do we do to throw more experiences like that? I think a really good after-school program that is not just designed to get some federal dollars, that's really trying to do something that increases positive pro-social interaction with securely attached kids and not securely attached kids and other adults that can help mentor things like that that create the village you need so that there are plenty of hands stirring the pot in the right direction. That's where we went.

Nadine Wilches 14:54

Yes. And I think that we need a standardized model. And we have standardized clinical models. You referenced a clinical model that you're using. You have lots of clinical models and clinical training. And so we have things at the tertiary level that we know work. We even have things at the secondary level just before diagnosis, and we have really specific strategies. But I think when we talk about primary prevention, which we're talking about right now, we need a standardized process, a standardized mental health care, preventive mental health care model. So that's what we're working on are in, and we're finding a lot of success in that. So I'm curious, because we use a lot of technology to help non-clinical folks do pre-clinical preventive work, where do you see the biggest opportunities like data, predictive analytics, sort of new treatment approaches using technology to support prevention? How do you see that working with dovetailing with what you do?

Ken Huey 15:54

Yeah, that is not part of my world. So I actually can't speak to that in terms of providing services other than technology is deeply embedded in the services we provide at a residential setting in a residential setting, for instance. So we use technology to make sure that we have headcounts that we're supposed to make sure that meds get administered, but that's really not what you're talking about. So that's not my expertise. So I wouldn't be able to speak to it.

Nadine Wilches 16:17

Well, I guess from a, let's take somebody in residential treatment who is ready for discharge. And you have a technology that tells you sort of a prediction of what types of social behavioral lifestyle factors that they would need to bridge the gap between residential treatment and the community-based programming. I'm sure you have a referral pathway, but besides that, what types of things in the community could strengthen? Would these types of technologies are these things that you're exploring are technologies that support intake work and you know discharge work and things that can bridge gaps that you can't address? Are those things that you've explored or thought about?

Ken Huey 17:00

None at all.

Nadine Wilches 17:01

Yeah, just very interesting to think about.

Ken Huey 17:03

Um so you talked about a standardized model. If you're talking about a standardized model, I'd be fascinated to see that. If you're talking about the standardized model, I don't believe in that. I philosophically, I just would reject that out of hand. I don't think that we have got the science nailed down in psychology. We just don't. And there's no way, I don't believe, in any any time in the next 50 years to have the standardized model. But some standardized models that are effective sound great. And if there's technology that can support that, I think that sounds tremendous, especially as we've got the advent of AI. It's stunning to me what can be done by punching a bunch of input into an AI model and say, now, give me an interpretation. And what that does to focus, we do let that happen with our clinicians, to get them to focus on what's the best evidence-based practices that are out there, that can be very helpful.

Nadine Wilches 18:04

Yeah, I think that you're right. I think that well, with any part of the healthcare continuing, there's no one model that's gonna work for everyone. And you talked about a really niche population of folks, and when we talk about populations with unique needs and you're talking about geographical pieces, there's never gonna be one model. But I think you're right. I think there's gonna be an improvement in preventive mental health care over the course of the next five, 10 years. And I think that there's a lot of good research out there, but you're right, it needs to be synthesized and standardized in ways that we can put it into technologies that will work for folks like you and prevent folks from needing services like yours and also make sure that folks who need the services who are in that other bucket that we talked about can actually access them. And I think that technologies can support that piece, those underserved folks as well. And you talked about mentors and challenges that shaped your leadership journey a bit. Can you talk about the folks that support the bigger village for you and the work that you're doing? And how do you work with the professionals around you? So other organizations that might kind of complement or support or partner the work that you're doing or bridge gaps that you see so that you can create continuums of care, you can create referral pathways, you can support your teams and lead your organization while with creating those professional and collaborative and communication relationships. How are you navigating all of that now?

Ken Huey 19:41

I see. Yeah, so I've served on the boards of three different nonprofits in the space. One, the Attachment and Trauma Network, which I think does a phenomenal job of kind of boots on the ground. How do you help give information to especially schools, teachers to navigate trauma and aces and what do you do to help? Another one called Attach, which is really the preeminent training organization for trauma and attachment issues, I think. And they have a conference, both of these have conferences, in fact, I'm speaking at the Attachment of Trauma Network conference here coming up, no longer on the board. And then another one called NATSAP. It's a mouthful, but the National Association of Therapeutic Schools and Programs. And this was founded, well, 25, 30 years ago by some really phenomenal humans that were like, look, we we're too siloed. We've got residential programs, wilderness programs, psychiatric hospital stays, all these different places that don't know what their neighbors are doing to help understand and promulgate best practices. So they created this organization that has been a phenomenal organization for learning more about best top-notch practices. It kept people from feeling so competitive and realized we're in the same work together. There's plenty of need to go around. So I'm actually the treasurer for that organization. And that's been a phenomenal outlet and place to bring people together. That that organization is really struggling financially because there's been a lot of damage done in the field where programs have had to close down and about half the membership doesn't quite sustain the budget. So that's been sad for me, but it is a really great organization.

Nadine Wilches 21:18

Yeah, I think you're right. Those types of organizations can really be a conduit to folks bringing people together. But I do hope that they're able to sustain themselves through this. And it sounds like they're doing some great work. And it sounds like you're also in the business of service where you serve on boards and as treasurer. And that's also a really nice way to have leaders like you invested in these things because it sets that pathway for others to invest in their community with their time and energy and support to help bridge those gaps because a lot of them do run on a volunteer basis, like ours here in Long Island. Long Island Health Collaborative is all of us are volunteers, but it's a really nice network and we do benefit quite a lot from understanding what everyone's going through and what's happening at a certain time. So I want to leave everybody with kind of a key takeaway. If there is something that you could leave the audience with that you feel like they could do that you found that has been really helpful for you in your pathway that you think has others could take on pretty easily and adopt, what would something be that you'd want everyone to take away from this?

Ken Huey 22:25

I think there'd be two things that I would say. The first would be please believe and understand, not fake it, understand that change is possible. We can rewire the brains of those that have significant trauma and are acting just really weird. They're having a hard time. That can change. People can really rewire their brains. That change is possible. So that's the first thing. Please believe that. Understand that. If you don't believe it or understand it yet, research it so that you do. And second, know that whether you're a clinician or an administrator, a business person, an accountant, it doesn't matter. There is energy you can put out into the world that helps heal this exact kind of trauma by being a mentor to somebody who needs that kind of caring and connection. That would be the biggest thing.

Nadine Wilches 23:14

Yeah, I love that. Well, thanks, Ken, for joining us today for all your insights and sharing your experiences. It's been a pleasure. It's been really nice having you.

Ken Huey 23:23

Thanks, Nadine. I really appreciate it.

Nadine Wilches 23:25

Take care.